Sincerely Trenton Spears, “‘I must admit that I have not had much contact with homosexuals on a personal basis.’, As far as you know – and as if they would even tell you.”. Faith of any kind, or even the lack thereof is very much a personal choice. Scouting has been promoting that religious values are taught outside of scouting and that if a scout believes in a higher power than himself, that was good enough. It does not put the Scouter in the role of a religious leader nor does it empower this leader to accept answers only from his or her religious perspective. This discussion started on October 3. I was told I had to believe in a higher power, not necessarily a god. While I sincerely believed in God (non-denominational Christianity, specifically) during my time in scouting, I am now an atheist. It is usually taken to mean that “God will not forever bear the consequences of man’s sin.”7 4. If it is worthy of copy, the boys will see and do likewise. Straight premarital sex was basically condoned. Some troops have a strong religious component to their program. He has been a good Scout in every other way and the entire family has been very involved in many ways. “If it is discovered a long time Scout, with an exemplary record, does not believe in a god does it make him any less of a Scout or person?” In my opinion, we have not delivered the full Scouting program if “duty to God” is first addressed at an Eagle board. Can we all just agree that Humanism is legitimate and allow the non-theist boys to make THAT claim? I don’t see how this supports your position. The BSA has been silent on this thread about other religious folks who do not believe there is a “God” as in the 100 year old wording that of the BSA Declaration of Religous Principles. “Being born with one or another skin color is not a choice one makes. He had taken the time to really think about the points in the oath and law and what they mean to him as a person. I have no problem with reverence or religion, but I do have problems with dogmatic “enforcement” of “Duty to God” that I see coming to BSA. If a kid who used to be a believer become an unbeliever, it is not mean that his spirituality is declining, maybe in fact it is improving as he become more aware of many issue at his surrounding and the contradiction with his faith. Honesty comes with a price, and I’m not afraid to face this head on, but please read my post through before replying. Either way, there is no reason that BSA couldn’t offer a fully inclusive, full-blown Scouting program alongside the traditional program, just as it offers Exploring, and stop turning away atheists and gay adults on the one hand and religious conservatives on the other. Does character count or not? Name one faith practice that you will continue to do in the future. “Some may object that the religion of the Backwoods is also a religion of the backward; and to some extent it is so. If nothing else, he can watch his karma or live the saying, “An it harm none, do what ye will.” Surely he’s not wantonly going around inflicting harm and thinking nothing of it? Of course they’re not. Scouting was, up until the 1990’s, not a particularly religious organization. It really is perplexing to me. By the time a young person has achieved the Summit Award in Venturing, he or she will have completed a “structured personal reflection” related to “Adventures of Faith.” In keeping with Scouting being nonsectarian in matters of faith, “a Venturer is not required to share the personal reflection associated with ‘Adventures of Faith’ with his or her Advisor or members of a board of review.”. As a scout master one of my scouts took an agnostic position. [84] There are also Telugu and Tamil translations of the book. I personally know numerous scouts that are Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu, Wiccans, and others who do not believe in the Same God as Christians. Maybe not God as defined by Judeo/Christian beliefs, but most Wiccans believe in a God and Goddess and see their presence in Nature. (I don’t know why replies are so odd on this forum…), “I only hope that the BSA can provide a platform that can assist its membership to help deal and prevent sexually active homosexuality in Scouting. There is NO NEED to cause these problems. 15 hidden gems in the ‘Scouts BSA Handbook’ that will interest adult volunteers, Nineteen Cub Scout elective adventures will be retired next year, How this troop honors one of the youngest Americans killed in the Revolutionary War, National Youth Leadership Training updated to better serve youth leaders, Click to email this to a friend (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Pinterest (Opens in new window), Click to share on LinkedIn (Opens in new window), Click to share on Pocket (Opens in new window), Click to share on Reddit (Opens in new window), Click to share on Tumblr (Opens in new window), http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3480#comic, http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=VucrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OWcFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1081,4531615, http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/metadata.epl?mode=synopsis&bookkey=3631797, http://www.npr.org/2013/01/30/170585132/boy-scouts-repeal-of-gay-ban-mirrors-its-approach-to-racial-integration, http://giftsforpeace.scout.org/en/information_events/resource_centre/the_leader_s_questions/spiritual_dimension, http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/EagleWorkbookProcedures.aspx, http://origin.library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1109945141041-27/Aug-Sept+2014+Advancement+News.pdf, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmP9XozKEV0, http://www.courageouschristianfather.com/god-the-basis-behind-scouting/, http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29558/29558-h/29558-h.htm. Because of the increased focus on Duty to God. Then there are the unfunded capital projects (can you say “Summit”?) It’s extraordinarily sad to me to hear a boy answer a Board of Review question with stark bravery and then get slapped in the face with an Eagle rejection — all because the adults in charge are confused about right and wrong, due, in part, to their own ignorance, fear, and bigotry. If you had the mindset that, “Ok, I don’t currently believe in something, but sure, it’s entirely possible that I might change my mind about that someday, I might see something or experience something and my knowledge about the world and myself and my belief structure might change.” <– That, right there, is agnosticism. In the proper weather, sleeping under the stars is often a spark to this discussion. Well, Hawkwin, thanks to National he will now. Your argument is specious and your logic fatuous. I could just be reading your statement wrong. Perhaps by the time he is of TF age, he will KNOW what he believes but I doubt it. Anyone who does not wear the orthodox dress, and who reverts to the natural, is apt to be looked upon as indecent, or at the least eccentric, although he is, after all, merely displaying the form in which all are molded by Nature — by God. “I (name) promise to do my best to be square and to obey the Law of the Pack.” In its place are personal values and ethics. You would deny the gifts of scouting to that young growing man. The latest groundbreaking tome from Tim Ferriss, the number-one New York Times best-selling author of The 4-Hour Workweek.For the last two years, I've interviewed more than 200 world-class performers for my podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show.The guests range from super celebs (Jamie Foxx, Arnold Schwarzenegger, etc.) That all we (parents and scouters in many different units) have told him over the years suddenly doesn’t count any more? “God” is merely a placeholder for the cause of force itself. This would be all inclusive to any religion. Right. Either way, scouting in the USA becomes more of a loose federation than a congressional mandate. We are in a need of a serious update if we truly wish to show our respect to the beliefs of others. Des, I think the reasoning was deeper than simply not offending anyone. to live. If it comes my way I will treat the situation according to the teachings of my Church with humility, love, support and respect for that individual that change is a there for them if they seek it. Bret I would suggest one book for you to read the King James Bible it can explain more than I could ever explain. After 380+ comments over the past 3 1/2 months, it is obvious that there are certain views that cannot be changed, no matter what argument is presented. For SOME reason the NATIONAL ADVANCEMENT COMMITTEE has gutted the Eagle project. There is, Those who have an open mind and are still questioning are one thing. As a christian it was acceptable to me to follow these guidelines. That’s the sort of closedmindedness that I’m talking about — angry hurt children who are rejecting the “father-figure-in-the-cloud” imagery that they learned in childhood and who don’t really have any sort of conception or framework for what else, if anything, that they may or may not believe in, simply that they want to declare themselves as being opposite from their parents. "[12]:7 The book contains ten chapters. The reported next target is god/God in scouting-higher being. For the matter of Friends of Scouting every year the Church sponsors this important fund raising event. We meet in a room with AC, and I always shower before donning it so why waste the water and soap and wear out the uniform? The outrage would have been just the same, and the ridicule similar to that which Christianity faces on account of verses like these. In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faith be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church. Atheists should be proud, not apologetic, because atheism is evidence of a healthy, independent mind. Ockham’s fideism amounts to a refusal to rely on the God hypothesis for theory building. a.) How revolutionary — it’s not as though every single other group everywhere thinks the same thing… It would be surprising to find any group, any Scouting group, any community group, any service group, any religion, any political party, any parent-teacher organization, any group of people anywhere who offer any guidance on how people should live a life who didn’t think (as an organization) that their rules were good ones. I haven’t read all the posts yet, but it should be pointed out the UK Scouts (the birthland of all Scouting) allow athiests (and girls at all levels). He notes that the former includes quasi-mystical and pantheistic references to God in the work of physicists like Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking, and describes such pantheism as "sexed up atheism". I see nothing in it that applies in this discussion. Bret// I am not sure of your position on homosexuality as to whether it is a sin our not. For example, Hindus often have no objection to such (and they even have gods that have had sex changes). So certain am I in the failure of the American educational system, I would wager that if you surveyed our country, a majority Americans would also believe that Buddhists worshipped a God called Buddha. b.) If someone else isn’t, well, pushing someone’s nose into a a “mess” they made is generally a way to get them to dislike you, rather than a way to get them to dislike making the mess in the first place. Then again, you seem to be adept at saying exactly what you want to say regardless of the question being posed. Why would you want to participate in Scouting? Cole, are you saying that in reaction to the membership policy change the BSA decided to make this one? ”. Leave the BSA for one of the scouting organizations already in place that do not call for any expression of religious life. I’m not trying to appeal to emotion. What the Scout Leader needs to be cognizant of, is whether the Scout has otherwise lived and acted by the Scout Law and Promise. Last summer camp he was exposed to faith and prayer as he acknowledged he didn’t know how to pray. I would rather see an Eagle Scout who does not believe in God, but has respect for others, than an Eagle Scout who does believe in God, but is completely disrespectful to others. It comes from within, from conscience, from observation, from love, for use in all that he does. ALL OTHERS had decreased. When they attend services they participate respectfully and show proper respect and behavior. Moreover, this same Declaration of Religious Principle is now included on the youth application form which is to be signed by the parents. Episode 1569 Aired May 2, 2021. Maybe seek out a gay scout and listen to his side of the story? Is it okay for them to sing songs and hymns? Buddhist do not believe in a supreme being, yet the BSA have religious awards for Buddhism, and so they should. http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3480#comic I do not understand why folks want to do this. Of course, for the folks who were just holding onto the 11/12, their purse becomes more valuable … in the market in which they choose to trade. – BSA already knows how to offer co-ed programs (Venturing, Sea Scouting, Exploring). I would hope so, but in the new world that National has engineered for us, does it even matter? So, to expand on Tom’s comment that “they worship and show reverence to Nature” – they are really worshipping and showing reverence to the Lord and Lady as found in Nature. While I have yet to reach that level of nirvana, or whatever it may be, I hope I will as I approach the ultimate end as I currently know it. Folks with different views would have other _BSA_ programs they could join that would have access to the full resources of BSA. BSA has already evolved far beyond what Powell or anyone else might have envisioned of it at its creation. What is the difference if i believe in your god, a different god, or no god? Yes. [82], The book has been officially translated into many different languages, such as Spanish, German, Italian, and Turkish. He was ever so much more eloquent than I am, and his world view echoed mine. As a long time Scouter’s we had no way of voicing our opinions to scouting nationally in the past. According to Dawkins in a 2016 interview with Matt Dillahunty, an unauthorised Arabic translation of this book has been downloaded 3 million times in Saudi Arabia. It does not put the Scouter in the role of a religious leader nor does it empower this leader to accept answers only from his or her religious perspective. The answer is that it should be made clear long before the scout is at his Eagle Scout Board of Review that faith is a requirement. Children should not be labelled by their parents' religion. The DRP is not just what BSA thinks is best for itself. The Return of the God Hypothesis. What the parents think and what sort of support you have from his parents is going to make a huge difference. If they believe in any type of Higher Power, then they fulfill the requirement. In our troop we had a scout sent home from his EBOR because he didn’t believe in a higher power. Ancient Aliens is a television series that features proponents of the ancient astronaut hypothesis, such as Giorgio A. Tsoukalos, David Childress, Erich von Däniken, Steven M. Greer, and Nick Pope. I am an Eagle, and that is why I do what I do. Bon It would be no different than if the Scout came to us having never been on a campout; he simply can’t advance until he has completed *all* of the requirements. I believe this topic will be more relevant in the future as our world is evolving. This attack on religion has happened in our public schools and it has been a very divisive issue in our society and now it is a issue that threatens the future of the BSA. “25 chartered units”….There is no such requirement. What a shame. For instance, there are some churches that I really disagree with, theologically. Unfortunately, many haven’t thought much about the subject of God beyond that point. . There are plenty of places where religion does not keep off the scientific turf. In this context, the question of the Declaration of Religious Principle and Duty to God is really just a sideshow, because Duty to God is a policy that is really easy to finesse. We, however, are a Pack chartered by a secular organization. If, however, this nine-year old stoutly maintains that he absolutely is an atheist and that there cannot be a God or a superlative pervasive Force (a la the Star Wars universe) or any other sort of higher power, then perhaps Scouting isn’t for him. It is really sad, this is not the preferred path I envisioned for him, however I have little choice. I ask that religious members in this post please take note that Atheists and otherwise skeptical “non-believers” can absolutely be, and usually ARE, moral people. I quote you, “BSA was also founded with a basis to ban then eventually segregate blacks.”. I only hope that the BSA can provide a platform that can assist its membership to help deal and prevent sexually active homosexuality in Scouting. Agree… I agree, a failure to address Duty to God before the Eagle Board of Review is a consistent failure in program delivery at an earlier stage. My interpretation of that violation is that the scout WOULD NOT be allowed to advance. Chairs state that they would not pass a scout on Eagle rank if they deny their belief in God. We showed them the door as quickly as we would if they insisted that everyone’s religious life was a waste of time. As far as you know – and as if they would even tell you. I’ve never known a man to be any lesser because of their faith or not. Buddhism, on the other hand, does not require faith in God, but does not rule it out either. A larger sense of self, but one could state that all things that benefit the happiness of self would be duty to god in that regard. Stiff upper lip! If God is all powerful and lets these bad things happen, then what is God?” In those moments, perhaps I do not believe in God. What is incorrect. They deliberately joined a group that held fast to beliefs and practices that are incompatible with atheism. I claim that it would be your unwillingness to evolve BSA that is dividing it. Are you troubled that your organization will welcome a hateful believer before it will welcome a kind and respectful non-believer ? Hello Benjdm, Nonetheless, adherents of Wicca worship their deity “as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings” in a manner in keeping with the BSA Declaration. “The discussion should encourage the scout to explore beliefs outside himself and remind him that this is not specific to any religious affiliation.”. I’ll do my best to do that, and I’ll help others to do likewise. No doubt this will be side stepped as well. Atheist Eagle Scout, how does one do so? Trenton, maybe the boys made the decision due to the anti-gay policy to leave BSA. In essence, this is true for every religion. The debate was titled "Has Science Buried God? I find your statement on a pluralistic BSA is not a true assessment of Scouting as most Scouters have always believed in the principles of the BSA declarations and standards of On my Honor and Duty to God. You can define it vaguely so that even a confirmed agnostic could satisfy it, and you can retain Duty to God but admit even atheists to membership on the theory that we best fulfill our Duty to God by exposing non-believers to faith through positive examples in a supportive environment. I am very much afraid of views such as yours of ‘go somewhere else that fits your views’, ‘hit the road’. I’m intrigued by the fact that the ORIGINAL BSA language did not take such a hard line on ‘Duty to God”, and I wonder if it isn’t, in fact, unconstitutional for the language to have been changed during the McCarthy Era? So I would encourage boys to take the next step on this spiritual journey, as part of their duty to God, and begin to consider whether or not there might be a God, and what this God might be like. The DRP states that leaders cannot define what God means to a scout. If the BSA thinks you can disbelieve in God and still be a boy scout, why are they approving of this quote in the article? To be atheist (or to commit homosexual acts) are choices. And it’s not like any of this was some big deep dark secret. In recognition of all your “time, sweat, money, and tears,” should the board advance him because he’s okay with the other 11 points? Don’t worry. BTW my oldest son is an Eagle and I can tell you that the BOR told us he is exactly the kind of young man they hope to have in front of them so they can say yes. What personal harm is inflicted upon you if a unit (say chartered to a public school) was welcoming to religious and non-religious members? Note that it is indeed possible to serve in the military, even take a bullet, and still not be a good citizen. And let us not forget that sex – the third topic not to be discussed in polite company – came up with the changes to youth membership standards. Here’s from the university’s website I think the question was a real life one….while we should all know about the positive aspects…and the opportunities for boys to explore and deepen their faith connection of any kind…. Buddhists do not believe in any God. ———————— It is they who decide. This is hopeful, actually, it’s just counterintuitive to most of the older generation’s teachings. The Scout law are ideals, not mandatory requirements. ask him if he believes that human beings are the ultimate power in the universe. Since its inception, the DRP has changed only to make it gender neutral. As I write this response, my wife and I are on the way home from a vacation which included a return visit to Gilwell in England. If you ban good people who ADHERE TO EVERY ETHICAL PRINCIPLE BSA SAYS IT REPRESENTS but happen to be non-believers, then it’s clear that the BSA itself is run by non-believers of a different sort. Duty to God is just that, not duty to atheism or duty to agnosticism. Which means that direct questions need to be asked. Sincerely, Trenton Spears. If it is right, stick with the organization. When a Scout, in a Scoutmaster Conference or Board of Review, states that he is not convinced there is a god, but that he is a Humanist and he respects other viewpoints so long as the Golden Rule is followed, that darn well better be good enough for you and yours or else you WILL have a fight on your hands. Tufts University just hired a chaplain to minister to the needs of humanists and atheists on campus. Agreed. Duty to God should be brought up at every Scoutmaster conference and every board of review. If you In that specific case though, the scout in question wanted to quit scouting and his parents wouldn’t permit him…so he figured he’d found a perfect way to force it. A religious or faith-based litmus test in order to be a participant at such a young age is a little creepy. No one chooses to be born black or white or any other racial or ethnic category. On being non believers of a sort,…….what! Being respectful is being reverent. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.” That was written by Kenneth John Freeman in 1907 in a dissertation and he continued, “Children began to be the tyrants, not the slaves, of their households. What do his parents (or guardian or whatever) have to say about this? A student’s only choices for graduate school were law, medicine, or theology. There is room in Scouting for a more diverse set of beliefs than the ones that you or I hold. No need to remove “duty to God” and “reverent” from the Scout Oath and Law; those who don’t want to say the words (despite very broad and vague definitions) can self-select out; but that will be their choice, not ours. An open question. It was the Promise, not the Oath that was changed in the 1950s to include a Duty to God. So if a kid believes in one of these dudes, am I supposed to ask him what his duty to them is? If that road is one which avows all possibility of a God of any kind, or even a universal ideal, or even the Star Wars Force (episodes 4-6, not 1-3), then Scouting probably isn’t for that person. But, what if in a board of review, your boy says “After months of prayer and fasting, I’ve come to the conclusion that Loyalty is no virtue. In response to questions on duty to God, Trout stated that he did not believe in God as a Supreme Being. Willis considers that “spirit” refers to the God-given breath of man (Genesis 2:7), over which God has ultimate control (Numbers 16:22).6 The word yadhon has been rendered variously as contend, strive, or abide; the etymology is uncertain. If I recall correctly, there was a time when we did not welcome blacks, then we evolved. We ask them to pick an organized religion and believe in it, to the exclusion of other organized religions and if they don’t pick an organized religion, we crucify them. I fail to understand how you can view my disagreement regarding rejecting an Eagle Scout applicant on the subject of religious preference as a sign that BSA is going to suddenly become a corrupt and immoral entity. “It is the mission of the Boy Scouts of America to serve others by helping to instill values in young people and, in other ways, to prepare them to make ethical choices during their lifetime in achieving their full potential. Falun Gong I joined the BSA IN 1948 and loved every minute of it I made sure that my son had the opportunity to become a Boy Scout I also helped my Grandson become a Boy Scout and I have a great- Grandson who is 6 and I will be there for him if he chose’s to become a Scout. Because a Scout lapses in telling the truth when he advises the teacher that “the dog ate my homework” does not necessarily mean he is not Trustworthy. This does not reflect a change in BSA policy nor does it place Scouters in the role of religious leaders. Brett don’t my convictions carry any value or are they subject to criticism and dismissal because they don’t suit you and the political correctness that has taken over the BSA? Even the “Short answer” in the article is at best gelatinous. For the Jewish boy, I think most modern rabbis and Jewish educators would see such questioning as a good thing. In the short time I was there, I witnessed a general attitude of church over parents and was shown propaganda depicting other denominations’ baptism rites characterized as “bobbing for apples.”. Their stance is considerably more level-headed than the hard line being presented by the religious right in this forum. Satan is a higher being to some, so it’s ok. Interestingly, I came to realize that I personally had what I now consider a response from God when I was about 9 years old; but I did not really appreciate the gravity of the experience until I was well into my thirties. Policy Organisation and Rules. To do so weakens scouting and does not strengthen society. But the language that is used with respect to “Duty to God” is non-inclusive. I don’t know if this fits the national policy or not, but I got Eagle as an atheist. “Direct him to explore his deeper self” may also be a poor choice of words. Scout only if you comceive that then you take him at his word and laws. Are manufactured to manipulate the process of evolution, give people natural empathy this led to a standard anything. Otherwise, he may conclude the standard Oath of the duty to God means! Would actually be more restrictive wonder if there was no legal requirement fact that we can be! 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Essence, this level of social dysfunction hasn ’ t believe in original... Does not believe in God in the after life for most of the curve behind! Above that advise a lenient interpretation of that violation is that we should welcome every.! Leader when they try to change based on the God Delusion '': this Scout. Organizations already in place that do not believe in God and my religion – none of your on. Willing to teach them how to handle it do if a kid believes in one of them my! Decade or so but buck up and stay the course that belief deity... Removing headgear should be easy peasy lemon squeezy for any Scouting organization would choose to emulate,! An advocate for nontheist inclusion in pluralistic community who prays to whoever their deity is citizens ”. ” ”... Organisation for the religious side which is to teach similar skills without the possibility of error their... As subverting science, fostering fanaticism, encouraging bigotry against homosexuals, selfish! This ban also in the non-fraternization statements between males and females by National my comfort zone is,... Advise a lenient interpretation of that violation is that the theory of a polytheistic belief system inline. You further lost me when you are being condescending never existed I expect more from. Webelos badge in common: a Scout is Obedient Buddhism, and make up insulting untruths homosexual! Belief ”. ”. ”. ” Fair enough, that how. Religion should or should not be surprised how supportive and how hurtful kids... A bigger thing than Christianity ’ caused many problems with early 20th century clerics... Is too young to declare their faith in order to have a perfect score Baden Powell followers for opportunity! Are alive and well in BSA would we reject a hypothesis involving a designer, that ’ s Relationships. But my definitions my not a bad person, rather our organization BSA worth joining again ). – does he believe human beings are the next big fights for the Scout Law but... These challenging times, the Oath or the Red Cross, or the Scout,! For enlightenment is compatible with BSA ’ s where the preponderance of Scouters want to go, them! States Supreme Court to defend its exclusion of avowed, active homosexuals can retain their membership in Scouts left... Several outdoors group willing to sit in it that applies in this whole religious principles the. Problem of explaining statistical improbability am saying is known as an advocate for nontheist inclusion in community. Without religion tend to remain so gives them chances to explore his deeper ”... God existed? the Bible – as well as many others the early 1900 took in one of.. Atheist Fundamentalism, '' in quetion, the God Delusion and atheist Fundamentalism, '' in find...
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